Eternals is Marvel’s shot at Superman and the DC Universe

Are Batman and Superman possible to exist within the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Two prominent lines from the MCU’s latest film make this a more plausible possibility. Eternals. The characters featured in both films are often compared to DC Comics characters. Comic books’ history is full of nods and winks. There are even legitimate crossovers between the two rival stables of heroes.

But in the context of the uber-successful, culturally defining MCU, it’s even more shocking. It dredges up all manner of thorny philosophical questions and makes one wonder if maybe Eternals is, in its own way, a satirical look at DC’s loftier, mythological, godlike superheroes.

On this week’s Galaxy Brains, Jonah Ray and I are joined by Polygon Comics Editor Susana Polo to discuss Eternals’ subtle Superman critique, Jack Kirby, and DC and Marvel’s ever-evolving rivalry.

The conversation is edited, as always to be less bizarre

DaveEternals has two references to DC Comics characters. It would feel like: OK, that’s kind of a cute thing. Two eems deliberate. Is this a sign that DC Comics is still available within the MCU

Susana: How else can these characters possibly know what Batman is? Batman, the fictional character. I don’t think we can say that Batman exists as a person who fights crime in the MCU. This is the conclusion I can draw from it: Superman and Batman comics are both available in the MCU. But, is it making Batman movies now? Is the Snyder Cut a part of the MCU or outside? Is the Thanos Blip a DC Comics comic? These questions left me unable to contain my excitement and completely missing the scene.

Dave: It was incredible! I don’t think it was a problem, but rather, just like. You guys go there so many times!. The central figure of Eternals was Jack Kirby, who worked at both DC Comics and Marvel. Can you give us a little bit of backstory and history on Jack Kirby’s significance to those two companies?

Susana: Sure. We hear so much about Stan Lee. But Jack Kirby really is the other half of Marvel. Stan is known for being a person, but Kirby was known more for his visual style. Not only did he dress characters in a unique way, but he also choreographed fight scenes, and the sizes of their panels. You go back and re-read Kirby’s work and seeing what he did is like being able to see the Matrix. It’s like all of a sudden you realize that everybody who came after this guy has been trying to do the stuff that this guy did because he was just so original for his time. His push for superhero comics was so evident that every other person tried to follow his lead.

Dave: Jack Kirby, the forgotten child of Marvel is now going to DC. The disgruntled Kirby turns his back upon all these people, and he goes to DC. How did he do it? Was he at DC when he did what?

Susana: Jack Kirby became fed up about the treatment he received at Marvel in 1970. He felt like he wasn’t even given credit. He felt like he wasn’t being given enough money, and he decided to cut ties with Marvel after co-creating the Fantastic Four and the X-Men. He’s even said to have had a hand in Spider-Man. Stan was the one who defined the Marvel Universe in the 1960s and 1970s as well as Stan. It gets to him and he decides to go all-in for DC.

DC is obviously a huge success. And they’re like, Jack! You can do anything.. And he’s like, Well, cool, I don’t want to put anyone out of a job. Give me the lowest-selling title you had planned to cancel. Give me just a few books so I can do what I like in them.

So he grabs this comic called Superman’s Pal Jimmy OlsenHe starts to make the Fourth World. It is a collection of comics with interconnected characters. Kirby liked the Shaggy gods story with those characters. I think outside of his visual aesthetic and his comics language that he used, the thing that crops up in Jack Kirby’s work over and over and over again, is he’s really into this idea of superheroes as gods, superheroes that are these immortal beings that have been alive since the dawn of time. The inspiration for mythology and the Fourth World sort of came out of it.

Fourth World was an idea he pitched to Marvel. He said, “Like, Hey, we’ve been teasing Ragnarok and Thor forever. Ragnarok is something I really want. I will kill the Asgardians, and that will trigger this surge of divine energy. Our new characters will come from the new gods created by divine energy. Thus, the Fourth World DC assumes these Norse gods were destroyed. It’s really difficult to compare to anything else because there isn’t a lot like the Fourth World anywhere else in comics, except with the Eternals or the Inhumans, which are Kirby’s other attempts to make these very, very old, super powered characters that may have inspired figures like Medusa and Zeus and Icarus and Mercury.

Dave: Thus, Kirby’s Fourth World and New Gods is the thing Kirby does at DC. This sounds very similar to Eternals, Inhumans and other super cosmic characters that exist above the world that we see. Was there ever an era when Marvel and DC looked like? This Darkseid man seems to be familiar.

Susana: Well, it’s funny you ask that because Eternals was made after the New Gods, Kirby eventually went back to Marvel and they were like, Jack, you can do it again. Make us some.. The Eternals were created by him, and they are very similar to New Gods. They look like the Inhumans. Their existence on Earth has been long and their mythological names are incorrectly pronounced. Marvel’s Eternals did not take off like DC’s Fourth World. Partly because Darkseid, a powerful Superman villain, kept bringing back the Fourth World. It was a constant theme that everyone kept returning to it. Also, it is the only DC comic that has a Jack Kirby-esque aesthetic, which DC needed to use. That aesthetic is unique and fascinating.