Our Flag Means Death’s creator unpacks episode 7’s big drama and ending

Season 2 of HBO’s pirate comedy/romance Our Flag Means Death takes some big turns by episode 7 — maybe not as big as the season 1 turn, when inept pirate captain Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby) and Ed “Blackbeard” Teach (Taika Waititi) realized they had romantic feelings for each other, but still… a whole lot of things happen that we figured viewers would want to talk about, once they’d seen it for themselves. So when Polygon sat down with creator and showrunner David Jenkins to talk about season 2, we split the conversation into two parts: an overview of the season’s biggest ideas, and this spoiler-focused conversation about all the surprises in episode 7, including its explosive ending.

[Ed. note: Read on at your own risk; spoilers abound ahead.]

Photo: Nicola Dove/Max

Episode 7 recaps the episode. Our Flag Means Death season 2, Stede and Blackbeard have just had sex for the first time, and they seem all set for their happily-ever-after together — until Blackbeard abruptly leaves Stede to pursue a job as a fisherman. Oluwande’s (Samson Kayo’s) feelings for Zhang Yi Sao are expressed by the crew when they visit the Republic of Pirates. This is despite his discomfort with Zhang Yi Sao expressing her feelings to him, especially after she had taken over his ship. The crew also discovers that The Swede, Nat Faxon has settled into his role as one of twenty husbands for Spanish Jackie (Leslie Jones) despite being forced to enter the relationship in order to save the other members of the ship.

You’re right, the summary sounds like something from a soap opera. But this doesn’t: At the end of the episode, a trap set by Prince Ricky (Erroll Shand) obliterates Zhang’s fleet, and the pirates’ haven is destroyed when the English fleet sweeps in to kill or capture the whole cast. Jenkins takes us through the episode below.

The following conversation has been edited in order to be concise and clear.

What surprised me most in Season 2 was that there were two separate coercive relationship where men are forced uncomfortably into intimate relationships with women, only to later come around and like it. What kind of conversations went into those relationships and the gender tropes you’re reversing there?

David Jenkins: With The Swede and Spanish Jackie — she owns [her husbands]. She owns and lives with them in her basement. So already, you’re [ick noise]. The Swede is a great fan of her. She’s a gangster, she’s a mob boss. This role has a female aspect. But then he says, “I’ve found parts of myself that I never knew existed, and other parts I thought were long gone.”

Leslie was a great idea. [Jones]’s character and Nat Faxon’s character being together and happy, balancing each other. She’s already got a wild thing going — she’s got 20 husbands. It was funny to me that the relationship started as a joke. Oh, Leslie’s character’s scary and his character’s timidIt turns into They balance out pretty well. — that’s kind of sweet. It’s less about the fact that she essentially owns him, it’s about the fact that they do care about each other. It’s kind of nice.

Photo: Nicola Dove/Max

Zhang and Olu have a very similar dynamic. When they start out, she’s got all the power in the relationship, and she’s kind of predatory about claiming Olu. He’s intimidated and forced into it, and he comes around on deciding he likes her. The repetition of the same beat is just odd.

Well, she has all the power in the relationship until she doesn’t. And then she realizes that she’s in love with this guy — he is soft and kind and sweet. And that’s powerful. I think they’re mirrored in Blackbeard and Stede’s relationship — they’re each each other’s manic pixie dream girl.

The show makes a point about how pirates live a harsh life. It’s essentially Mad MaxThis world. There’s no law, there’s just strong and weak. There are stories that tell us how to do this. Game of ThronesWe can see the results. It’s a lot of women getting raped in stories and you’re like, [resigned ick noise]. In This Flag, a lot of these relationships aren’t consenting relationships — they’re power-dynamic relationships, because it’s Mad Max. This is what I’d like to be able to watch in the show. Why is this person more powerful interested in the person who’s weaker? What is the balance they are trying to achieve?

In a world where might makes right, and some people just need to align themselves with someone strong, it’s interesting to be like, What does Blackbeard require? What is Spanish Jackie’s need? Zhang Yi Sao is the most powerful pirate of the world. What do they need? What happens if she enters a romantic relationship? What’s she after? She’s a modern person, what does she need? So you’re always gonna get those weird power dynamics to start with, I think, and then you just try to get to: What’s underneath that? Why are they doing what they’re doing? What do they want?

Photo: Nicola Dove/Max

In terms of Blackbeard’s needs, some of his fans may think that leaving Stede at the end of episode 7 was a revenge. This is so similar to what Stede has done. It can be read as him running away from Stede, as a way to avoid commitment or even as an attempt by Stede to harm him. What are your thoughts on the people freaking after Episode 7?

Well, there’s a thing I talk about a lot — I really, really liked the Bradley Cooper/Lady Gaga version of A Star Is Born. It’s interesting to see how they change the dynamics. Everything we do is collapsed on this show — we talk about these lofty things, but we don’t have the time to execute everything we might like to do. For example, the fourth episode is basically a miniseries. Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?Just a small version.

In this case, we liked the idea that Blackbeard found this guy and made him a legitimate pirate, but now that he’s a star, Blackbeard’s questioning what he wants to do now that he’s lost his appetite for piracy. And Stede’s turned into Lady Gaga’s character. He’s famous now, because he killed the scariest pirate, so that power is inverted. It’s interesting to look at how a relationship changes now that Blackbird isn’t the star anymore and Stede isn’t a hanger-on. Stede got what he wanted; he’s a real boy. Is Blackbeard jealous? Does he seem uncomfortable? It can be problematic when power dynamics change in a partnership. It’s like this: What is their plan? Will they make it? They can they balance? This is the sign of an enduring relationship.

This episode was also a turning point in the relationship between Jim and Olu as well as Zhang. Why did they decide to go in separate directions following their relationship in season one?

The relationship I’m referring to was viewed in that room always as a friendship that turned romantic. That tension was interesting to us — it’s like, Well, what if we don’t play them as jealous? What if we play it as, when you love a friend and it becomes romantic, and then you see someone who makes them happy and you know you’re not it, you feel jealous? But also, they’re your friend. You want them to be happy. I think a lot of times, particularly in straight relationships, it’s traumatizing, and could be more about the jealousy. But here, I think it’s nice to see it this way: They truly care about each other enough to just want to see their friend with someone good, someone who takes care of them. These are, in my opinion, the most rewarding relationships. [with exes]. I do see those among my friends, but I don’t see it dramatized a lot, I just see the negative component dramatized. I like it this way — they’re friends, and they just want to see each other do well.

Photo: Nicola Dove/Max

The end of the episode 7 is a change in this regard.

The internal forces that are at work in This FlagThe villains are. It’s like, Are you able to love yourself? You must know exactly what you are looking for in a partner. You may know exactly what you desire, but are you in a healthy state to achieve it?As you begin to explore the themes of [Blackbeard impression] Should I be gay?You can also find out more about Oh, my friends did me dirty — we’ve seen that a lot. It’s good dramatic fuel, but I don’t think those are the things that drive the show.

This show’s main driving force is the group of individuals who want to be in relationships and care about one another. It’s hard to have a relationship. Usually, you’re your own bad guy or gal or person in a relationship. It’s rarely [someone] doing something terrible to you — it’s you just trying to figure out your own shit. Your friends can help you.

The big ending of episode 7 does suggest, though, that there might be more outside pressure coming to the cast, even if it’s just a short-term blip.

It seems to me that this story is about an age where piracy has come to an end. This way of being is ending. And every Western that’s good is that story: This way of life we made is coming to an end, and it can’t last. […]Every story of outlaws involves a struggle to maintain a certain way of living against forces which are fascistic.

All of which is a big historical moment, as far as the history of piracy, and it’s part of Stede and Blackbeard’s real-life story. Was that element coming in from history, the way you took little parts of Stede and Blackbeard’s relationship from history?

Using historical beats are good, because they give the story some shape — until they’re not useful, and then you just ignore them. When you feel like you’d rather eat a sandwich, just ignore the history. When you’re feeling like eating a sandwich, just ignore the history. OK, we’re in emotional soup here, we need some downward pressureThen you can bring it back. The balance of the show is 90% ignoring history, and then 10%, bring it in, whenever we’re like, Oh, I’ve got to move this story along! Remember, the English are out there, and they’re really bad!

Season 2 of The Finale is now available. Our Flag Means DeathMax airs this episode on the 26th of October.