Our Flag Means Death’s creator on his pirate comedy’s big kiss, and season 2

When David Jenkins’ HBO Max pirate comedy Our Flag Means DeathWhen the series premiered for the first time, it became clear that it would find its intended audience. The series leads — Thor: Ragnarok director Taika Waititi and his frequent project partner Rhys Darby, as versions of real-life pirate allies Stede Bonnet and Edward Teach, aka Blackbeard — are compelling reasons to check out the show. But Waititi doesn’t fully arrive until episode 4, and before he meaningfully enters the story and brings the big drama with him, the series is mostly a light comedy about self-important incompetents making fools of themselves at sea.

The 10-episode series gradually became an emotional tale about self-discovery and re-invention as it aired. As Stede Blackbeard and Stede seemed to be moving closer to a romance, word quickly spread on social media. Vocal, invested fans wondered if the two were being teased or baited. The moment came nearer, and fans began to notice. started creating tender fan artThis is Stede and BlackbeardIt is hard to believe that their love will last. The season’s final two episodes do resolve that question — and then wrap on a cliffhanger that openly invites speculation about the future. Polygon recently spoke to series creator, writer, and producer David Jenkins about what went into the series, and what’s next. Warning! Spoilers for the premiere season Our Flag Means Death.

The interview was edited and reduced to a manageable length for clarity.

Photo: Aaron Epstein/HBO Max

Everyone who sees the final will have one question. When is season 2 going to be? Is HBO looking to greenlight the next installment of the series?

David Jenkins: They look great, I believe. I think we’re so lucky. It’s been so heartening to see how many people are responding to the show. Just in the last week, the fandom exploded — just to see it on Twitter, to see the fan artIt is very satisfying. People are smart! I checked out some threads, people writing while the show was on, and it was like they had been in the writers’ room. They could understand our work and had the same conversations as we did. So the fact that that’s happening, I think, is really a good sign, and bodes well for season 2.

If you’re planning on continuing to follow Stede’s life as closely as you have been, that limits the prospects for how long the show could go.

[Laughs.]It is.

What’s the ideal version of this series like to you right now, in terms of how long it should run for you to tell the story you want to tell?

Three seasons seems good to me. We could probably do it in just three seasons. I mean, I don’t know — your perception of what the story really is changes so much in the writers’ room. If it doesn’t, you’re doing it wrong. Because you’ve got all these other super-smart writers who have their own life experiences, and you talk through the season with them, and then you’re like, “Oh, man, there’s all this other stuff there.” But right now, I feel like we could probably do it in three. This story fascinates and inspires me to create the show. To me, that’s the through-line that cuts across the entire series. And I don’t know that you want to see that go on for five, six seasons.

You don’t even start telling that story until episode 4, though. That’s a response I’ve seen over and over from people — that episode 4 is where the show’s plan really starts to come together. The structure of the season was what?

The story was broken up into pieces. To see Stede’s true self, and how it went, we needed to watch him. And then seeing how he changes once he meets the love of his life — to me, that seemed important, to see how badly he was doing on his own. We needed to see the whole group. Once Stede and Blackbeard get together in the first season, they eat up a lot of story, and we don’t get to learn as much about our crew anymore. We don’t get to see them do things as much as I would like, because there’s just a finite amount of time.

We needed to allow the first act to breathe, so that we could establish the tone and who our characters were, as well as who their relationships are. And then having Stede run into this terrible thing where he’s stabbed. It’s a pleasure to watch a man become arrogant. It was a serious mistake for him to become arrogant. To me, when you see him get stabbed, and the blood runs through his fingers, it’s like “Oh, no, the clown got stabbed! It’s not! ComedyHe got stabbed. Stitched stabbed!” That to me is cool. It was a satisfying feeling to have Blackbeard finally find me as the final act in our story.

Photo: Aaron Epstein/HBO Max

You’ve got this story coming out in the middle of yet another national moment around visibility and rights for queer people, from Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill and Disney’s responseTo a Proposed oppressive legislation is a new wave. What’s it like bringing out a passionate gay love story in the middle of this moment?

It’s unfortunate timing in that it’s happening at all, and it’s great timing in that Florida’s saying “Don’t Say Gay,” and HBO Max is saying “Our Flag Means Death.” That’s fantastic, I think. The goal for me was to create a show that didn’t feel niche. It had these relationships and these characters, but it’s mainstream. I wanted to create a four-quadrant — I hate that phrase — a four-quadrant hit that still has these relationships, because “Of course, this is life.” We aren’t saying, “This is a gay pirate show.” This is a pirate show, and that’s it.

I think that’s a strong move, and a simple move. We’re just saying [casually], “Yeah, OK, we have queer and non-binary characters.” The fact that it’s lining up with this national moment means I feel good that people can watch the show and see themselves, and feel like, “Yes, we are mainstream. We’re not being shuttled off to the side.” It’s not a specialty show. It’s for everyone. It makes me so happy that it’s been received that way.

Were you on set for Taika and Rhys’ kiss scene?

Yes.

Was it fun working alongside the directors and shooting this moment?

It was a day when I needed a tight set. I didn’t want Rhys or Taika to play, but I did need a focused set. It is a wonderful set that they run. It was clicking by the third run of the scene. Taika is fascinating to watch, because he directs himself — he’s used to directing himself. He’s really good at [saying]Direct to the director [surprisingly accurate Taika Waititi accent], “Tell me where you want me, tell me what you want me to say.” He’s the actor I think he wishes he would have, he would be directing. I see this renowned director with his director-brain still working as he’s acting.

It was fascinating to watch them perform these scenes repeatedly, and to observe how it all came together for Rhys & Taika. In that scene, they were so good at listening to one another. They were very kind to the script — they did every word that was written. And then they brought in such a comfort with each other that I was like, “Just let them run it. Just let them go. No adjustments, no ticky-tacky notes. Let’s just see what comes out.” They were able to share their love for each other. they led each other to a really beautiful place. And [episode 9 directors]Bert and Bertie were fantastic at setting up that scene.

Imagine you’re kissing your platonic friend of 16 years. It’s awkward! It would not be unprofessional to make someone kiss their friend. In a workplace, romantic scenes are not acceptable. So there’s that level of it. At the same time, You’re like, “We’re just gonna kiss, it’s fine.” So the closed set was important because they really got to focus and drill down on the scene, but it’s also like, “It’s just kissing. It’s not a big deal. Everybody who’s done a high-school play has done that.” I think an equally intimate scene is the one where Blackbeard is in the bathtub saying he was gonna kill Stede and burn his face off and take over his life, but he doesn’t want to send him to doggy heaven. It was beautiful to watch the scene unfold. It’s such an intimate scene. They’re very much alike. There’s no kiss in that scene, but it’s equally as intimate, and just to watch them open themselves up to each other like that, it’s a joy. You can also get scenes to these locations much faster because they are so familiar with each other.

Photo: Aaron Epstein/HBO Max

When we’re with Blackbeard in the finale in particular, we’re in dark, dramatic places, but whenever we’re with Stede, we’re back in a broad comedy. How much do you think you would like to see more big comedy than drama if you get the next two seasons exactly how you wish. Imagine the balanced result.

That’s a really good question. The last three episodes are great. There’s ridiculous fun, with Will Arnett doing stupid stuff with a bullwhip, and the crab-fighting. It’s great, the stories are really popping. There are like four different stories going on there, which to my mind is like “Eughhh, it’s a lot!” But it flows really nicely. It was fun to create this show. I wanted to include violent moments, as pirates are criminals. But there are also broad moments and laugh-out-loud hilarious moments. And then, we can just relax and see how people feel. As long as all those three things are alternating, I’m happy. One might take precedence in an episode, but if all three are there, it’s healthy and it’s working.

Stede, Blackbeard and I believe they will remain the center of attention. Our Flag Means Death fandom. There are many more stories, as you said. What are you most passionate about directing viewers to, aside from your central pair? You want people to be able to see what you are doing in rewatches. Or, are there questions for the future?

It’s a wonderful show. It’s such a great cast. You know, everyone is a pleasure to me. I think Con O’Neill does such a great job. He’s such a complex character, and it’s such a tortured relationship. And that’s a love story too, between him and Blackbeard. It’s a very dysfunctional story, but it’s fun to watch. You might be able to see the end result of their relationship on a second watch. It’s a combination of enjoying the group and enjoying it. Ewan Bremner is in there, being amazing, playing things with such size, and they’re grounded. It’s amazing. It’s an embarrassment of riches. All these types of acting are possible.

So I think it’ll hold up to a rewatch for the main story, to see how Stede and Blackbeard’s relationship comes together, but also to see what the crew is noticing, and how they interact with each other. It’s great to watch all of these things.

Season 1 Our Flag Means DeathIs streaming on Max