Goku can’t beat Superman or any anime hero anymore

Son Goku is the Dragon Ball hero, a trained warrior alien and a pretty powerful man. How powerful is he really? Hardcore fans might tell you that there’s nobody out there that could beat Goku in a fight.

Take this into consideration: Tony Tony Chopper would be my sweet baby and beat Goku if I told him so.

One eternal question spans all of pop culture: “Who would win?” That’s why we’re dedicating an entire week to debates that have shaped comics, movies, TV, and games, for better and worse. Prepare yourself for Polygon’s Who Would Win Week..

Fans have enjoyed the excitement of debating about Goku’s strength since the 1980s. Dragon Ball, a Japanese anime and manga series that was influential in other manga and anime, became very popular in Japan. Although it started as fan-translated bootlegs with shipped-in manga, the series eventually appeared on US TV in the late 1990s. It had many false starts but finally gained popularity. Anime was not as popular in Western countries as it is today, even though it gained a wide audience.

That’s probably why fans first wanted to make a case for its protagonist over the characters in more popular comic strips and TV shows of the day. One of the absurdities of the argument, of course, is that just because a character is very powerful, that doesn’t mean the media is inherently good. But Goku’s strength is a key focus of Dragon Ball stories. Like so many shōnen protagonists, he is constantly coming up against stronger and stronger foes, and getting stronger himself in turn. Dragon Ball gives strength a straightforward numerical metric in the form of power levels — you may have heard of that time that Goku went over 9000.

The manga and anime’s emphasis on Goku being very, very strong made it a constant source of interest for the community, too. And fans in the ’90s and 2000s latched onto Goku and his power as an emblem of their niche. “Goku vs. Superman,” for example, became a classic matchup. As they’re both powerful beings originally from different planets, it makes sense as a comparison. Superman was the greatest comics character and he didn’t need any defense. Goku was, however, part of the new wave. A fandom that sees itself as an outsider is what inspires passion.

In 2002, Wizard magazine published a front-page hypothetical fight between Goku and Superman, titled “East vs. West.” (Goku won.) In 2003, a popular webcomic took the initiative and expanded on the rivalry. Fans began to target any Superman-loving creations as Dragon Ball gained popularity. An 2009 video showing the American hero winning won millions of views but was rebuffed 75% and garnered angry reactions.

Since the 2010s this tendency to promote Goku has become a joke stereotype and is now a popular meme. Dragon Ball lovers are not the underdogs anymore. The script is changing with anime and manga becoming mainstream and Dragon Ball one of the most popular and influential. People, particularly fans of other anime series, began to poke fun at the perceived tendency of Goku stans to jump in on their discussions to talk about Goku’s strength relative to whatever other protagonist was in conversation, regardless of any other subjective considerations of quality or enjoyment.

This is because the joke still has real consequences. To this day, it’s easy to find fans responding to the memeOverly serious explanations on how powerful Goku are only going to make it worse. Sincereness is what sparks online mockery more than honesty.

There are also those who, despite Japanese media’s popularity, try to exclude other people based on their superiority. According to the gatekeepers, people aren’t “true fans” if they haven’t seen “the classics,” or prefer genres other than shōnen. With shōnen so often focusing on the strength of the protagonist, there’s a notable overlap between these gatekeepers and those who focus on Goku’s power above all else.

But the inherent humor of baiting those who constantly proclaim Goku’s strength is an easy counter to that kind of gatekeeping. It was as easy as asserting that. Goku could be taken on by anyone, in fact.. It collided with another meme, the “Your Fave” format, which allowed people to send in requests to see characters in any number of bizarre situations; “Your Fave Could Beat Goku” accounts sprung up on both TwitterTumblr. These allowed users to claim that any person or anyone could win over him without asking questions.

Popular characters with women include Sailor MoonThese are either from the mainstream of modern anime. My Hero Academia Jujutsu Kaisen, prove to be the most popular posts — and the most controversial with certain Dragon Ball fans. However, people who show up to dispute or ask for explanations about how they will pull this off make it even more fun.

We’re living in a post-Goku era. Access to anime is easy via both online streaming services like Crunchyroll or major companies such as Netflix. It is no longer a hobby that needs to be protected, nor does it require the support of an all-powerful Goku. And the broader availability of series and films that aren’t shōnen means the focus on strength has also fallen away. Conversely, the minority of fans who continue to take the argument too seriously tend to fall alongside those gatekeeping anime’s increased popularity and variety.

But others have been able to appropriate the meme because of the intrinsic comedy of the overly earnest internet comment that conflates protagonist’s strength with story quality, turning it into a weapon against gatekeeping in general. It’s a brave new world where anyone can beat the Saiyan, thanks to the power of one’s conviction. That’s the most anime thing of all.