God Of War Ragnarök’s Director Discovered He Had Aphantasia During Development

Eric Williams, who has worked on God of War since its inception, is a veteran of the game’s development. He’s also been credited with titles like Darksiders or Insomniac’s Spider-Man. However, he’ll always call Sony Santa Monica home. For God of War Ragnarök, Williams put a pause on his video game consulting business to take on the director role for the highly anticipated sequel. Williams spoke to us about how Cory Barlog (God of War 2018) convinced him to accept the director role. He also discussed how nearly all God of War games have a different director. We talked about how Williams discovered that he was unable to create visuals from his head’s eye. How the unexpected casting of Richard Schiff in the Odin role came about. You can check out the full interview below, which is free of God of War Ragnarök spoilers, so feel free to read even if you are only starting the game today.

Game Informer: Cory Barlog spoke out about 2018 God of War and his inspirations for the game. Do you have comparable personal elements you were able to inject into Ragnarök?

Eric WilliamsMy heart is not on my sleeves as much as his. It’s just a different style of going about this. It was a great team effort, especially the writers. There were times where I was like, “Okay, I had this happen in my life,” and you wonder if there’s a way to inject that into this character because it seems like that’s what’s missing. That we don’t have any heart in this, so it’s just feeling a little flat. We had many discussions about these types of issues, but it’s not something I see as a problem. It’s not like I am a father. To pretend that I know how these emotions would feel. It was more like I’ve got to trust the people that are parents for those type of things.

The opposite was how I saw it. I was like, I’m going to dig deep into me being a kid, and I’m going to look at it from Atreus’ point of view because everybody that is currently a parent? It’s difficult to let go of that because it’s every day. You can’t just take a break from being a parent. This was a unique opportunity for me to be able to see how it might work out. So I kind of really push from the Atreus side like, “Okay, like, how is it going to be?”

The children are beginning to ask questions and have an opinion about the world. This is a change from following their parents’ lead and just doing what’s asked. This was my favorite part. It was something I tried to fight for. I didn’t just want Kratos talking down to me all the time. They should feel almost like they are equals.

I was looking over your credits and on the God of War games in the past – and please correct me if I’m wrong about this because I’m looking at Moby Games – but it seemed like you were mostly focused on combat. Was Ragnarök a huge change for you being in the director role? Is it something that has been gradually building over the years?

It’s been a slow build for sure because even back on God of War II when Cory took over – Cory and I have worked together for twenty years – I’ve always kind of been like that right there with him. They used to joke and call me AD on the side because they’re like, “He’s just the assistant director,” and things like that because we just had a great partnership.

Then we parted ways in 2008 and I became a consultant. He was writing, doing some other things and was always moving around. But every time he’d land somewhere, he would call me and be like, “Hey, you should come over and help me out.”

You know what? I flew to Sweden, Australia, wherever he was or across the bay to Lucas when he was there. It’s very easy to accumulate a lot of things when you travel all over the world. In my ten-year tenure as a consultant I had worked in 24 studios. It’s interesting to see the way things work. It’s a great way to meet other people who have been there. It’s a great way to learn from many people. This allowed me to build up a huge knowledge base. Funny thing was that I claimed I had quit because consulting was like vacation to me. I could do whatever I wanted, even though my job was in the games industry. Because I worked on multiple projects at once, it was almost 30 years worth of software development.

One example is: When we finished God of War 2018, while I was finishing Spider-Man, I was also working with Insomniac on Spider-Man. I was also working with Ready at Dawn IP on Spider-Man, and was simultaneously working with a Polish team.

From 8 to 12 in the morning, I’d go to Santa Monica, then drive to Burbank, where Spider-Man would be working until 7 pm. Then, I’d return to Santa Monica to continue with that project, then maybe work at Ready at Dawn the following day. It was really just me doing it all.

So, I started picking up stuff and working at Ready at Dawn. Learning how they work, working alongside Cory, and working with Brian. [Horton, co-director of Spider-Man]Insomniac was where I met so many people, and picked up some stuff. Then I had a masterclass with them. [Mad Max: Fury Road director]George Miller, when we were in Australia

Was it possible to have worked with George Miller during the time you were working with Cory?

It was true. It was amazing. This alone would have allowed us to do the entire interview. It was amazing how much I learnt in the ten days that I spent there. Cory lived there almost for a year and spent many months. Because he just received an incredible influx of stuff, I envied him.

While I may be wandering, it is clear that all of this was packed from many points of views, so I could still learn a lot on my side. So, when Cory finally was like, “Hey, man, I’m tired after 2018. This is what you should do. I think you’re ready for it,” I said, no. It took me a while to accept the offer. Because I believed I would help, it took six months for him to persuade me. At the time, I was unsure if it was something I would do. The leader was something I wasn’t sure I wanted to do. This was my first challenge. It was now time for something different. We did it, and it was a success.

It’s not going to be a lie. In the beginning, I made a lot of mistakes. I had to deal with many personalities and learn that everyone is different. It’s just a lot of that stuff, and you have to kind of just make mistakes. It’s not what you do after you have made a mistake that matters most.

Just make sure to correct those mistakes immediately, and then get on your horse again and continue moving in the right directions. I think we got there in the end, but we’ll see. It’s the people that matter. It’s the people that matter. It’s different when players put their money down and say, “I want to be entertained.” When you hear that review? This is a solid review.

This was the final decision you needed to make.

My little consultancy business has been put on hold. To keep the business alive each year, I pay the small LLC fee. But I am here to play full-time. It was nice to return home. Santa Monica was what inspired me. Like I was at a small studio with Cory way back in the day, and we made a lot of games that weren’t very good.

They believed in us and brought him here in 2003. I followed in 2004. They provided every opportunity for us to succeed. To play this game, I had to be able to call this my home. Although I met many friends at Insomniac, Ready at Dawn, and other locations, this was my true home.

Although this may seem like a difficult question to answer, is it going to become your main focus for the near future?

I was unaware of the review process until now. I was like, “Man, if this doesn’t score well, they’re going to show me the door real quick.”

That is it? ReallyWas there something that you worried about? What do you think of the game’s completion?

100 percent. The truth is, you don’t even know. You just don’t know. You can easily become complacent. This is not the right thing for video games or our gamers. The people want good stuff. You’ve got to kind of get yourself in an uncomfortable place where you’re like, “Okay, I really put it in every day,” and do the best you possibly can and get the team to do that, as well, to progress things forward. It’s important not to ruin the studio. It’s a big responsibility. You are responsible for the livelihood of 400 employees. It is your responsibility to ensure that the game runs smoothly, has a good review, and is not harmed by any adverse events. We’ve all heard the horror stories. It’s not like it couldn’t happen again. Sony, however, is far more tolerant of these things. But you know – there is a lot of money on the line. You’ve got to put it and do it right.

Cory is unique in that he has supervised multiple God of War game. This seems to be an internal directive that requires that each God of War games have a new leader. What is the reason for this? Is that the right choice?

That is the answer. This is my answer. To get a different P.O.V. Also, show faith in the growth of talent at your studio. If you just have one person directing the whole time, a lot of good people end up leaving because they’re like, “Well, I want my shot,” and then they’ll go somewhere else, and you’re losing really good people.

So I think, having that rotation … usually – I shouldn’t say usually. Director is usually the most qualified person because everyone already believes that they are the right people for the job. Cory believed in us all, and David also believed. [Jaffe, director of the original God of War] tapped him, we were like, “Yeah!”

I’ll never forget it. It was pouring and we were standing at Penn Station. We had phones on our desk back in the day, and my phone call and my phone rang, and I picked it up and Cory was like, “Hey, come downstairs!” And then my buddy Derek Daniels right next to me, who is my partner in crime, always for design stuff. His friend Derek Daniels is my partner in crime, always for design stuff. His phone rang, and I was like, “Something’s up.” And we went downstairs and met outside, and he’s like, “Dude, they’re going to let me direct the next game. Are you two idiots in?” and we were like, “Oh yeah, we’ve got your back.” He was like, “I need my animation team.” And they were still working at the old studio. And he’s like, You know, that’s weird if I call, so I called them up and said, “Hey, you guys all need to come over here.” He built this amazing animation team at the old studio, and I’m not even joking – four people came in for job interviews on the exact same day. They were our animated director and our story animator, so we took them all. He was one of Cory’s prodigies and is incredible.

They’re all still here and still have his back. All of them have been learning. Their first job was as normal animators. Then he animated Kratos for God of War II. He’s now the studio animation director. To get to the point, let’s say that Stig was in charge of studio animation. [Asmussen, director of God of War III]he was considered the best. Everyone rallied around Stig. Stig knew exactly what he was doing and had strong convictions.

By keeping the new POV present, you help people grow and demonstrate that you don’t have to stay stuck. This gives people the chance to recharge their batteries, which is important because it’s hard for leaders to play these games. It is impossible to turn it off. It’s possible to go home but not return from work. Your head is stuck. The light is on and you can’t get it to go off. You’ll be at the grocery store, and it’s like, “Oh, yeah. We do this level a little differently.” It doesn’t stop.

This is a short question with a potentially big answer – but how do you even write a game like Ragnarök? How do you start?

Wow! That is a difficult question. So I don’t really write much. To be honest, I don’t write a lot. The structural work behind the scenes is what I do most of, including the whereabouts and the beats. And how it’s going to happen. And then I work with the writers to get there, and I might add a little thing where I say, “I think they should say this.” I trust the writing team to do their thing, but they don’t get into that until we’ve already got the structure in place.

So, you go to a board, usually, and we use colored cards, and it’s like period B, boss B, etc., and you start to build this thing on the board, and it’s color-coded, and you look at it and think, “Okay, that looks pretty good. That would get us to here, and that thing would get us there, but, hmm, that kind of paints us into a corner…” It’s a puzzle. It’s a puzzle. You just keep at it until you get it right. Once you feel confident about it, you can break them down into scenes. Then they will start scene writing and develop their characters.

It is a huge game. This game is larger than what I was expecting. The length is more important than the environmental scale. Because the pace is consistent and impressive, I believe it deserves its length. Are the colorful cards that are on the board the starting point for this huge size? Did it ever seem like that was the plan?

It was. Cory and I are very different. He’s creative. He’s a writer, an actor, performer – he’s that guy, right? All of that is true for me. I have a background in math and astronomy. My strengths are more as an engineer than creative. Somewhere, however, it’s possible to stay in the middle.

It was then built structurally using Excel. These documents are broken down into the small things that you might see within a level. I write it out like, they come out of the gate, walk forward a little bit, talk about some stuff, Atreus finds the boat, Atreus undoes the boat, the little guys come out, you beat them up, you get on the boat, sail out a little bit, Atreus starts talking, Kratos says focus on the water, you pick up the loot…

The spreadsheet breaks down the moments and shows you how they are connected. It also tells how many minutes it takes to complete them. This spreadsheet is used throughout the game. And then you add up all the time and there’s another page that has an overview of all of it, and you see like, “Okay, this is going to be this long, and cinematics are piping in, and then you get the time of the game and it’s I would say it’s within 10%. Original prediction was 10%. It is quite crazy.

If you saw it, you would be like, “Oh, now I see what you’re saying!” It’s really hard to picture what I’m saying, but if I could show it to you, you would be like, “Oh, wow, that’s nuts.” Not a lot of people do it that way. This was the first time we had done it this way. It was me. It was me. Let me tell you the truth, this was the most amazing thing I discovered on the project. It also blew my mind as a member of the team. Are you familiar with Aphantasia?

No, I don’t.

It’s where you don’t see things in your mind’s eye. Then, I close the eyes. I don’t see any. Like you tell me, “Think of a green apple.” I can’t see it. It’s impossible for me to picture any object in my mind. So I compensate for this with a crazy ton of reference – images for everything. It was like being an artist. One of our artists was like, “Dude, you really don’t need to do all this.” And I was like, “I do, because I need to know that we’re looking at the same thing.” I didn’t even know this was a thing. That was a simple figure of speech. “I can see it in my mind’s eye.” And then I read about it in the Pixar book, Creativity Inc.: Overcoming Unseen Forces that Stand in the Way Of True InspirationPlease see the following: [former Pixar chief] Ed Catmull has this and I was like, “Whoa, this is a real thing?”

I went and started reading about it and all this, and then I started explaining it to people, and they were like, “Oh, no wonder why you do that!” Because I have like animated gif directory for like all the animators, for all the combat stuff. There are 6000 of them, or some such thing. I just pulled all the reference.

They love it, but they were also like, “You don’t need to do all this. We know what a roundhouse kick looks like.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but not this one.” So that was the weird thing. And then they just started to be like, “He’s just obsessive about all that stuff.” So I just stuck with it. I was like, “Well, I’m already compensating so it just keeps going more and more.” I was like, “Well, I’m already compensating, so I’ll just keep doing it more and more and more.” Some people get upset because they’re like, “Dude, you’re taking all the creative fun out of this because you’re just like, ‘make it like that’,” But then I figured out a different technique where I would pull stuff that didn’t seem like it went together and I would give them like a description and they’d figure out how to put it all together.

This is really fascinating. I can also understand why the artists would see it as too much reference, but… that’s just how you work, I guess, right?

Yeah. It’s totally different to Cory so they needed to adapt to me. This was also something that I needed to contemplate. I was asking myself why they are so hard. Then I realized that our approaches to problems were different. It was just like one of those epiphany moments of like, I’m f****** this up because I’m not paying attention.

You said you’re not as involved in the moment-to-moment dialog writing, but one thing that really surprised me is that Ragnarök is easily the funniest God of War game.

One-hundred percent.

My laughter was contagious. That was an early decision. Early on, did you say, “I want this one to be funny”?

Yeah, because I was bringing a lot of really heavy stuff into it, and they were like, “okay, if we’re going to do this, we have to cut it somehow.” I wanted it to be like Empire [Strikes Back]. Empire will be kind of a turnoff at the end. However, I don’t think it should be so downer as it will be the end.

The middle part of the game should be a bit downer and then it will swing around. So they were like, “Okay, cool. Can we start to open it up then?” And I was like, “Yeah,” and we started playing around with it and then we really leaned into the whole Kratos is like literally the most powerful straight man in comedy you’ve ever seen, to the point where he does things that are so him that you just laugh at him.

The one that always stood out to me is like when he first shows up, it’s in the house, and Sindri goes, “Do you need a snack?” And he just says, “I do not need a snack.” That’s going to be a meme on the Internet; one-hundred percent like that’s going to happen.

The exact same scene appears in Game Informer’s video review. To show off the funny lines, that’s what we highlighted. Richard Schiff is something I’d like to briefly discuss.

Richard was last night.

Schiff’s portrayal of Odin is completely outlandish to me. It’s one of my favourite performances in the game. He’s amazing, I think. What is the secret to his success? How did that happen? He’s not the first actor that comes to mind for sure.

This is funny, because in some early concepts one of our men puts famous people into it sometimes. Or I’ll be like, “I kind of want him to be like this person.” He got really good at it. We have many Odins, from many different perspectives. And then, it was like one of those magic moments where everybody was like, “Man… what are we going to do with Odin?” And we had already written some lines for him, and we didn’t have anybody in mind yet. And we were just like… what if we could get West Wing himself?

We didn’t think he would even take the call. Video games are not his thing. We were eventually like “Screw it!” and decided to just try. Ask him to tell us no. So Richard is in the car with his son, who’s a big God of War fan, and he asked his son, “Do you know what this God of War thing is?” And his son was like, “Just say yes. It doesn’t matter what it is, just say yes.” And then that night his son went home and wrote two pages for Richard. To help him understand the game, he broke it down for him. He was able to walk around and we could talk with him.

And he was like, “Yeah, let’s do it.” It was just this wild moment where we’re sitting there, literally walking and talking to him through the game, like he’s like Toby Ziegler, like trying to pitch him on his game. You know, it was amazing. And then first day on set, people were like, “Holy…”

They didn’t even know. They were like, “That guy’s going to play Odin!? You’re sh****** me!” And some people were like, “I don’t know about this,” And then he opened his mouth and everybody was like, “Dude, this is going to be amazing.”

Sing out Richard’s child.

Yeah, exactly. Gus! It was just what he brought home.

Many of these actors, Thor included aren’t the type you might consider for characters who have appeared in other established mediums. You guys have really done it.

We are so grateful. Thank you so much. [Judge as Kratos]Leading the charge. He can just make Kratos feel good. This is the essence of his character.

To read Game Informer’s God of War Ragnarök review, follow the link.