Barbarian’s Zach Cregger weighs in on the future of horror movies

To celebrate Polygon’s 10th anniversary, we’re rolling out a special issue: The next 10This is a discussion of the future of entertainment and games from some of our favourite writers and artists. Here, Zach Cregger, former The Whitest Kids U’ Know comedian turned director of one of 2022’s breakout horror hits, BarbarianHe sits down at the table with his ex-wife WKUKTimmy Williams (costar), representing horror fans all around the world, and Matt Patches (deputy editor), who happened to also work on this project. WKUK years before joining the Polygon team, to talk about the past, present, and future of scaring the shit out of people.

Matt Patches: I believe we should talk about the past few years in horror to discuss the next ten years. Zach, thank you for your Letterboxd collection of inspirations. BarbarianIt contained many hard-to-dethrone greats. Is there anything that comes close? In ten years, what movies will we be talking about?

Zach Cregger: Timmy, tell me what you think about this: To me, ’90s horror was not great. There are obviously exceptions like Blair Witch ProjectIt is a remarkable, amazing movie. But I’d say The ScreamThe movie “The Greatest Movie Ever Made” started the trend of putting hot faces on covers. So it’s like, Let me know what you did last summer, The Faculty, which is OK — but this trend of movies of hot, young kids getting picked off one by one, very glossy, cleanly lit, studio horror movies. It didn’t start the new millennium in the right way.

Timmy Williams It was a quick fire.

Zach:Strangely enough, I believe that the movie that truly disrupted everything was The insidious. The James Wan and James Wan movies might be the same. The ConjuringAnd The insidiousI think so, The insidious The product was created by an individual and has proven to be very successful. The movie made tons of money. It was an original, bizarre horror film that wasn’t about college students. It was then followed by Move Out, obviously. So it’s like, if The insidious is… I’m trying to think of a punk rock metaphor here. Move OutSex Pistols… The insidiousIs the Sex Pistols. Move OutLike the Velvet Underground. Okay, who cares?

Timmy: Maybe someone’s MC5?

Zach: It is important to remember Move OutThe doors were flung open.

Timmy: I wasn’t a horror fan all of my life. After a split, my love for horrors grew. I was then able to watch horror movies. Move OutIt was something like: It’s like an entirely new horror genre!. It wasn’t afraid to be funny, and it wasn’t pretentious. Some horrors in the past have felt somewhat stuffy. Move Out It was a great opportunity for auteurs, to make their mark in this genre and work with studios.

Zach: Barbarian is very much an independent movie that only later became a studio movie — it was created and funded and filmed as an independent movie. However, Move OutThe doors were opened. We get there. It is a hereditary matterAnd The WitchThese new horror films, which aren’t your usual horror movie, and appeal to a wider audience, can be really thrilling.

It seems like we could pretty much all agree. It is a hereditary matter is like Mount Everest-level for this last decade, yet there’s still a lot of people online like, “Call me crazy, but I think It is a hereditary matter sucks.” It’s a polarizing movie, which I think is part of its appeal. Saint Maud really belongs in that conversation, too — not enough people saw it. This was probably the result of the pandemic. However, Saint MaudIt belongs on the pedestal It is a hereditary matterAnd Move Out.

Lionsgate Home Entertainment

Matt: We’re raising an interesting point here, about “horror people.” Like the last 10 years, the next 10 will probably see a greater expansion beyond the core audience that will literally watch every Hellraiser direct-to-video sequel out of compulsion. But those people love, love, love this genre — is there any fear that they’ll get left behind? Are these new horror movies still for “horror people”?

Timmy: I think it is “yes.”

Zach:About a month ago, I was invited to Burbank’s horror trivia evening. BarbarianIt was out. Everyone wore a T-shirt in black with horror movies on it. The questions that they asked, I swear, only two of the 50 questions I was asked, were black T-shirts with horror movie graphics. I was just like, “Oh, I thought I knew what was up with horror. I know nothing.” There are real deep, deep fans. One of the questions was like, “Carol Anne is the name of the girl from the original Poltergeist movie. What was the name of the little girl in the Poltergeist remake?” And I was like, “How the Fuck would I know that?”

Timmy: I definitely count myself as someone who dorks out about that level of deep-diving, but on the edge: I’m not watching remakes. I’m not watching Hellraiser 10The one that looks almost like they got rid off whatshisname to get the man who looks like Bobby Moynihan.

Zach: Yes, there will always be hardcore horror enthusiasts, but these people seem very happy to live in 2022. The genre hasn’t abandoned its core, it’s just attracted a lot more people that would not necessarily think about horror movies to get on board and get on the horror train. I think that’s awesome.

Matt: There’s been a lot of chatter about filmmakers dabbling in horror just to get a movie made in the year 2022. How do viewers and Zach feel about this? Are you able to have it made more accessible, or does it threaten the integrity of the original?

Timmy: “Democratized” is a good term because I think, like Zach says, the genre’s just gonna keep expanding. It will always exist low-budget horror movies made by those who are passionate about making them. And yes, you are also going to get more people who haven’t made those before, but weird outliers can go in the other direction. Guillermo Del Toro. Sometimes his projects stick with big audiences and sometimes they don’t, but he just gets to keep doing his shit. It seems that he has enough support in horror fandom to be able to do his own thing.

Zach: What is your favorite film of mine? Nightmare Alley. Horrific! It’s so good.

Matt: It’s really gross, in a good way. However, it didn’t resonate with viewers. It would have been more successful if the movie felt like a horror film with a capital H. Is it necessary for storytellers to create horror movies to just be seen?

Zach: There is no such thing. I don’t feel like horror is the necessary gateway to becoming a filmmaker. I mean, I’m thinking about Alma Har’el, who made Honey Boy — there are just a lot of very compelling independent filmmakers that break through by telling stories with a strong perspective.

Comedic comedy is my favorite genre. They don’t make any anymore! Bros was an unfortunate flop, which sucks — it feels like that is just not what audiences are after right now. So I’m skeptical that horror is here to stay in the way it is right now, where it’s so healthy. It’s possible for the pendulum to swing.

Timmy:Not every indie will be. Terrifier 2Just because the clown is creepy.

Zach: TerrificierAnd Terrifier 2 — His willingness to take the movie five steps further than the original line is what makes them so enjoyable. And that’s why you buy a ticket to that movie; you’re never going to see anything like that again. It’s so difficult.

Screambox image

Matt: Is horror so healthy, and comedy so limp, because it’s more acceptable to be extreme in the sandbox of horror?

Zach: I don’t think horror has to be extreme to succeed. I don’t think BarbarianThis is an extreme movie.

Matt: Barbarian has a scene where an old lady who lives in a basement’s tit hangs out and waggles in a man’s face.

Zach: Are you sure that’s extreme? I don’t think that’s very extreme.

Matt: Ok, that’s okay.

Timmy: I would say it’s not extreme. I’d say there’s definitely stuff in your movie that people haven’t seen before. Namely, tit horror. It was something I told my mother before I saw the film, and she agreed that she would never see it. She had previously nursed six children. She was like, “Oh my God.”

Zach:The reality is that streaming has fracturing everything since COVID and all of our attention has been drawn in new ways. Like, what’s the point of getting in my car and driving and paying for an overpriced thing? Once you add drinks, popcorn, and everything else to your ticket for the theatre, it becomes very expensive! Sitting to watch a movie screen… All day I stare at screens. I can see a thousand new things every day. It’s not necessary to visit the theater in order to experience it. Horror offers this collective experience, the vibration in the room when you’re all together feeling fear, and it’s so much more powerful than when you’re just watching it at home on your TV or, God forbid, your laptop. The theater experience is becoming more and more self-deprecating and devoid of emotion. However, you will never get that feeling at home.

Matt: Zach, you know! BarbarianAlthough the movie was created independently, are studios or producers making recommendations for how a horror film should be made to succeed? Are there any guidelines that can help shape the genre’s future?

Zach: The only thing I want to hear is that it should be both scary and fun. That’s the beauty of horror — it can come in almost any package. That’s why Terrifier 2It is equally valid Smile. You’re just chasing the dopamine hit. This movie is one of my favourite horror films. Bad Ben that was made for $300 by one guy who’s probably late 40s, early 50s, in his house by himself in I think New Jersey. And it’s just a dude with a video camera and no one else for 300 bucks. And it’s intense. This guy has a way of framing shots that gives me fear. The art of horror is getting better.

Matt: Did you guys see Host, Shudder’s Zoom movie?

Timmy: This was a great read. And, you know, earlier, Zach, you said, God forbid people are watching on their laptop — I mostly agree with you except for Host. I watched it on my laptop with my headphones on, and I was like, “I’m part of this Zoom call.” I got on a found footage kick this summer and I watched Not friended. There are some killings. Not friended These are all fucked up

Zach: Additions We’re All Going to the World’s FairFound footage which is constantly being updated.

Image: Shudder

Matt: Horror has the ability to be elastic. And yet, in the last few years, we’ve still ended up with the term “elevated horror.”

Zach: I just don’t really see it as a useful term.

Timmy: It’s unnecessary.

Zach: It seems to imply that the rest of the genre is not elevated, meaning it’s somehow subpar. I definitely don’t think a BarbarianThe number of people who are able to afford it is higher.

Timmy: It’s a B-movie style. You might call it pulpiness. I mean, the whole concept of the guy raping people for years and creating these weird monsters is…

Zach: It’s not elevated!

Timmy: It was back in my memory. Contact UsJordan Peele posted that the movie had been deemed a horror film by people who started to call it an enhanced thriller.

Zach: Take a look at Scream. ScreamGood acting. That’s not elevated.

Matt: Here’s a theory: Maybe “elevated horror” has overtaken this era because movies of late haven’t put up any indelible horror icons. I assume the fear is, if it’s not elevated, it’s disposable. We don’t have many candidates for “the next Freddy” or “the next Jason.” The closest mainstream creeper in the canon might be… the Babadook?

Zach: Art the Clown TerrificierIt might be possible.

Timmy: That’s definitely one. But there just haven’t been many horror movies focused around one person. We’ve seen a lot more cults and supernatural terror that’s a bit more nebulous, not just a physical manifestation. We’re almost at a point where making jokes about horror movies being about trauma is almost hack, because there have been so many horror movies about trauma. BarbarianThere was plenty of food to chew. But there were still some slashing in the slasher sense.

But now they’re bringing Friday, 13thBack, making a fresh start SawJigsaw I have to say that the best thing about those movies are the insanely complicated plots. There are many movies in which a man sets up plots that will take place twenty years later than he actually died.

Zach: But that’s the thing. It’s like, it doesn’t matter! It is true that Final Destination films are my favorite. They’re just so stupid, but so smart. You just get to watch these crazy Rube Goldberg machines, and it’s joyful and playful and spooky — you can forgive so much.

Image: 20th Century Studios

Matt: I think that’s why Final Destination had a successful franchise run, which is weirdly not something you see a ton of these days. It is rare to see new franchises. But maybe that’s not the business. Zach, Barbarian revved up and it was clearly a hit, did you get the sense that executives immediately went looking for “the next Barbarian”?

Zach:That is what I believe. I have producing partners who tell me that they get sent scripts now, and a lot of times, the call that comes with the script is, “We think this could be like the next Barbarian.” So that’s exciting. SmileIt’s in the same boat. Like that’s a movie made for $17, maybe $20 million that did $200 million worldwide. Then there’s the TerrifierIt’s a success story. It is clear that people talk about everything. It’s hot.

Matt:Which will they want? Will there be executives shouting, “More old women in horror movies!” into phones?

Zach: I think next year we’re simply going to see a lot more horror movies. Just by the odds, most of them probably won’t be that great.

Timmy: Zach, I know you hate this, and you’re probably so sick of when people bring up MalignantThese movies are not the same movie as yours, but they have taken a huge, exciting left-turn. Do you think that’s going to be something that people keep trying to push?

Zach: Yeah, maybe! It would, in fact, be fantastic. Let’s get more movies that take big swings and narrative chances.

Timmy: What if being surprised is the new trend? I will say, we’re talking about bigger movies, but you guys mentioned Shudder earlier, and I love Shudder. Inadvertently, I subscribed for one year to the service when I was just watching Joe Bob back in 2018, and it never ended.

Zach: Shudder is one of my favourite streaming services. It’s the one streaming service I feel like I would miss the most if I lost it.

Timmy: They’re putting out new original shit like four or five times a month. DeadstreamThis was absolutely amazing. It’s basically like Evil Dead with a dickhead twitch streamer and a —

Zach: Accentuate the dick.

Timmy: For me, it works! It works for me! It feels risky to tell this kind of story. It’s kind of why it’s fun watching Justin Long get his fucking head pulled apart in Barbarian.

Matt: One of 2022’s top moments, frankly. Has me thinking about one more important question about the future of horror: Is it hard to come up with ways to kill people that don’t feel repetitive? That’s quite a task.

Zach: Yes! Yes! [Long] kill — you know, that was one I had to think of like two days before, because the kill I had in my head, I realized in practical terms we were not going to get to pull off. She squeezed her neck tighter than usual, so that blood rushed out of the nose and ears of him. I wanted the water to flow like a faucet. We couldn’t build it. With two days to go before the shoot, I was forced to reconsider it. We put thumbs into the eyehole, which gave her leverage to separate the heads.

Matt: I would imagine the technology required to crush someone’s head or dismember them has improved over the years.

Zach: It’s not. I’ll tell you this: My rule for Barbarian was not to use anything John Carpenter didn’t have access to on The Thing. We violated that rule a little bit; some of the seams in the mother’s prosthetics were painted out digitally to make it look a little smoother because you could see where her breasts were glued on. But beyond that, it’s all practical. And I think it’s better for it. The technology has brought terror down several notches. I can always tell when I’m seeing CGI, and it always takes me out of it. I find a more realistic and tangible experience in a practical effect.

Timmy:CGI blood, fake squibs and CGI blood are difficult to consider serious. For 10 dollars, disgusting gore is what I enjoy as a viewer. You know what I mean? Evil Dead 2,Or Evil Dead — it’s like colored cottage cheese or something. It’s possible to do it.

Zach: The best onscreen movie violence I’ve ever seen, though, is the fire extinguisher in It is irreversible. There may be some computer-generated effects. But it’s just done so well that you kind of can’t tell.

Matt: A new generation of horror fans will emerge in the coming 10 years. It is evident that this attention exists already. BarbarianTikTok is full of measuring tape scenes

Zach: What do they have to say about you?

Matt: People have lost their minds over how long Justin’s measuring tape is.

Zach: Is it possible that your tape is getting too long?

Matt: With the tape, he just goes into the cave.

Zach: That’s funny. It’s something I never thought of.

Timmy: They’re having fun talking about it because it’s such a fucking fun scene and silly. Just to be clear, I used to work in a carpeting warehouse. You can also get long-ass measuring taps.

Matt: The viral moment makes me wonder: What horrors will online kids experience? Are scare tactics changing or will they still work?

Zach: Horror is evergreen.

Matt: We don’t have to be worried about this?

Zach: Nope. They’re going to figure it out.

Timmy: They’re going to find new ways to do it, new ways in. It’s a base emotion to be scared. It’s been going on since fucking cavemen at campfires… whatever the caveman version of horror is.

Zach: “Tell me again about when the tiger almost ate you.” Horror.

BarbarianYou can stream it on HBO Max. For more of the WKUK gang, check out the group’s Twitch streams.